PayPal wont listen to me!

[Thing]

Contact your local Magistrates court and seek a relief from payment through the small claims tribunal.
You will have to appear before a Magistrate but you can supply the phone(s) emails & any other evidence you have & of course tell your version of events.
If you are successful the debt collector will be unable to proceed further & you could use the decision to appeal the pay pal decision.

[alassinsane]

Ok, just an update on what has been happening with this.
PayPal said to "appeal" the refund I would have to provide them with a police report. Impossible, it is not a police matter, therefore the police would not take a report.
After telling PayPal this in excess of five times, with them constantly emailing me back a generic reply and not actually addressing the issue, they have now referred me to a debt collector, ARL.
I have spoken with the debt collector and advised them that I have a dispute with the company that I don't owe them this money, but their attitude is basically, oh well, we've been told to recover the money from you so we don't really care if you actually owe it or not.
I've tried to seek advice from the ombudsman and the office of consumer and business affairs, with both of them telling me they can't really help me.
Does anyone have any advice? I'm really concerned that they are going to (if they haven't already) report me to a credit agency and screw up my chances of getting any sort of loan for the next few years.

[manfredh]

Maybe the seller also refunded you, or it was a payment for something else. Paypal do not refund more than the original transaction amount, and do not pay for postage.

[wilrc1]

I had a dispute over a phone i bought on ebay, it was listed as GSM/UTMS and when it arrived it was CDMA which obviously is useless in this country as its a very old technology, I put a claim in as the seller wasnt bothered refunding me, i got a refund through Paypal but they also sent me an extra $22 which i am guessing was the sellers fees... so that paid for the return postage, so i am a fan of paypal... but you have to be carefull of dodgy buyers who know the tricks!

[katep2]

Wow this seems so much more complicated than I thought.. might stick to the Trading Post..

[manfredh]

Regarding the debt collector part, they do use debt collectors, but I don't know what the threshold or criteria is. I would have thought it was less than $1000, but not sure.

[bc53]

If I ever even think about selling on ebay, can you hit me on the back of my head please.

[alassinsane]

bc53:
The seller does actually have to pay fees to eBay and PayPal to use the service.
The fees to eBay are a listing fee, a fee to place a photo on the ad and what they call a final value fee, which is for when the item is sold.
Eg: to sell a $650 phone, it cost me around $30 from eBay.
PayPal charges the seller when the buyer makes the payment, they take a percentage of the purchase price for themselves.
Eg: on that same $650 phone, PayPal charged me about $16.
Also bear in mind that eBay and PayPal are one and the same, so technically they are double dipping.
I think what manfredh is trying to say about legitimate payments, is that there is always the risk that if the buyer pays by credit card, and the credit card has been used without the permission of the card holder, the payment will be reversed leaving the seller without their item and without their money.
The other issue is that the buyer can receive the item, then turn around to their credit card company and do a charge back. Also leaving the seller without their item and their money.
I believe we're not allowed to post links on here, but if you want to hear about the most ridiculous eBay scam I've ever heard of, go to YouTube and search for "Judge Judy eBay" I'm telling you this is not only the most ridiculous eBay scam I've ever heard of, but the best Judge Judy episode I've ever seen!

[manfredh]

Just like the guy below though, you can have sold a few things on ebay but still run a chance of getting ripped off by buyers. There are a number of means for that to occur, but although a payment transaction has occurred does not mean that it won't be reversed.

You're viewing feedback from the angle of knowing yourself as trustworthy though, but just as you may not trust a seller to send the item, they don't know that you won't try and dispute the payment after getting the item.

Anyway, on paypal I've had more bad experiences using it than not, both being ripped off by dodgy sellers and extra costs from the way they handle the dispute process, plus as a seller paying hidden costs due to its way of charging fees (a local guy pays by paypal but picks up because he wants to avoid postage costs, yet I have to pay another 5% to paypal alone because he used US funds, which I had no control over nor awareness of).

[bc53]

I bought a few things on ebay, my payments are legitimate, so now I'm taking a risk that I might not get the goods. And what do you mean legitimate? don't payments must clear before the seller even think about sending the goods? As for the feedback, it's a lot of bull really, most sellers say "if you give us a negative feedback, we'll give you a negative feedback" so I'm thinking, once I paid you and you got my money, I fulfilled my side of the bargain, how can you give me a negative feedback even if I give you one, say if you took too long to send it, or if it was damaged.

[manfredh]

The seller pays for it as there is no surcharge for paypal and that payment mechanism costs more than any alternative - and the buyer gets to choose the payment mechanism!

Extending your argument, it's clear the seller is paying the fees, as if he wasn't selling the item, then he wouldn't be paying any fees either.

As for the chance, both sides are taking a chance, the buyer that they'll get the goods, and the seller that they'll get a legitimate payment and be able to keep it. That's why a legitimate feedback system and other characteristics are more important markers for delivery reliability on ebay.

[bc53]

alassinsane, Actually it's really the buyer that pays the fees at the end of the day, if the buyer didn't buy in the first place the seller won't be paying fees. I don't know about siding with the buyer, but when you buy something on ebay you have to pay first and then sit back and wait for the goods, which many times don't arrive, so the buyer is the one who takes the chance here. As for the debt collectors, how much in negative are you? if it's not 1000s the debt collectors won't touch it, not enough for them to worry about, in any case once you sell something the account will be in positive.
I think from your story that you were really hard done by, call them and talk to them without being rude or anything like that, maybe they'll come around, good luck.

[alassinsane]

From the stories I have heard, PayPal usually sides with the buyer. Which is quite ridiculous, seeing as it is the seller that pays eBay and PayPal the fees to use the service!
Does anyone know what will happen if I leave my account in negative? Will they really make good on their threats of debt collectors or is that just a scare tactic?

[kadee]

We have an electronic book sold via our US website. Often the log in email sent on purchase doesn't make it to web-based addresses such as Hotmail. Some customers, rather than contacting us, immediately log a PayPal dispute for undelivered goods...because it's not a tangible item we lose every time. Some of the unscrupulous read the book and then claim it's not as described and they win too even when we can prove they have accessed it. I'd like to see A&R or Borders or Dymocks allow you to read a book then bring it back.

PayPal is bad for business.

[manfredh]

Unfortunately, paypal is one of the most poorly protected payment systems around. Scammers know this and love it, and unfortunately you seem to have dealt with two of them... paypal will not offer any assistance.

I avoid it as much as I can.